tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14632740.post142161522987511277..comments2023-12-08T08:34:54.615-08:00Comments on Posthegemony: embarrassingJonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14637452970276655064noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14632740.post-89526442330486738332011-07-04T09:27:45.000-07:002011-07-04T09:27:45.000-07:00A moment of levity. I see that you like to play a...A moment of levity. I see that you like to play around with names, too, Belfast Boy.Jonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14632740.post-24478235027922319072011-07-04T09:26:41.000-07:002011-07-04T09:26:41.000-07:00More simply still: the point is not to banish them...More simply still: the point is not to banish them, and pretend that they are somehow not part of the community. For good or ill, they are. This is regardless of how much "danger" we feel they may be posing. And it's not a question of the condescension that you seem to feel.Jonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14632740.post-88316823925747513702011-07-02T02:46:48.000-07:002011-07-02T02:46:48.000-07:00<span>I see your point. You are suggesting...<span>I see your point. You are suggesting that the majority of the online mob is just like the majority of the rioters; merely confused children not yet aware of the danger of lighting gasoline fueled police vehicals on fire or smashing large plate glass windows with groups of people standing by. Yes, I understand. We should sit down and talk to the "self-righteous lynch mob" and tell them they are just misguided. Maybe, they are not quite old enough to understand the concepts of "civil liberties" or "presumption of innocence". It's just a playful bit of youthful fun because they are not actually harming other humans. Therefore, like the rioters, they are not posing any real danger.</span>Norman Whitesidenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14632740.post-15665663570772506582011-07-02T02:44:06.000-07:002011-07-02T02:44:06.000-07:00I see your point. You are suggesting that the maj...I see your point. You are suggesting that the majority of the online mob is just like the majority of the rioters; merely confused children not yet aware of the danger of lighting gasoline fueled police vehicals on fire or smashing large plate glass windows with groups of people standing by. Yes, I understand. We should sit down and talk to the "self-righteous lynch mob" and tell them they are just misguided. Maybe, they are not quite old enough to understand the concepts of "civil liberties" or "presumption of innocence". It's just a playful bit of youthful fun because they are not really destroying other humans. An like the rioters, they're not posing any real danger.Norman Whitesidenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14632740.post-34530297557664829532011-07-02T00:12:26.000-07:002011-07-02T00:12:26.000-07:00Oh, I see. You were just making fun of that gentl...Oh, I see. You were just making fun of that gentlemen's name? I suppose that's allright then.George Bestnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14632740.post-61536509585430485362011-06-29T09:48:00.000-07:002011-06-29T09:48:00.000-07:00Norman, I see you posted exactly the same question...Norman, I see you posted exactly the same question twice. See my reply, below.Jonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14632740.post-82022971951478093512011-06-29T09:46:00.000-07:002011-06-29T09:46:00.000-07:00Norman, thanks for the question. I think my criti...Norman, thanks for the question. I think my critique is rather different from the scapegoating and demonization to which I refer. I answered a rather similar query over on the Tyee as follows:<br /><br />"I get your point. But there is a difference: I'm not saying that the people who cheered on the violence, scapegoated a minority, and so on, should in turn be ostracized and run out of town. They were unthinking and got caught up in the (online) mob, but most of them are surely fine people. Real people, anyhow, not bogeymen and women like the "anarchists." Some of them are my friends.<br /><br />"We need to talk to them, work with them, get beyond the fantasy that suggests that we always have to agree. Real communities, real cities, always have to deal with differences and disagreements, as well as moments of madness. These people may embarrass me today, but they are Vancouverites too."Jonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14632740.post-41325324543175175842011-06-29T09:42:48.000-07:002011-06-29T09:42:48.000-07:00It was a joke, George.It was a joke, George.Jonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14632740.post-42693280333196000442011-06-29T00:59:21.000-07:002011-06-29T00:59:21.000-07:00<span>Professor, what is your position on a...<span>Professor, what is your position on amatuer bloggers who post poorly researched, duplicitous commentaries accusing others of being sef-righteous? Is it ethical for citizen journalists to <span></span> demonize other private citizens by making unsubstantiated claims accusing them of being members of a dangerous lynch mob without any due process? Are those accused of being dangerous not entitled to the right of presumed innocence? Just curious.</span>Norman Whitesidenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14632740.post-37853858843522503242011-06-29T00:57:59.001-07:002011-06-29T00:57:59.001-07:00Professor, what is your position on amatuer blogge...Professor, what is your position on amatuer bloggers who post poorly researched, duplicitous commentaries accusing others of being sef-righteous? Is it ethical for citizen journalists to <span></span> demonize other private citizens by making unsubstantiated claims accusing them of being members of a dangerous lynch mob without any due process? Are those accused of being dangerous not entitled to the right of presumed innocence? Just curious.Norman Whitesidenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14632740.post-29325720385975290192011-06-29T00:57:59.000-07:002011-06-29T00:57:59.000-07:00Professor, what is your position on amatuer blogge...Professor, what is your position on amatuer bloggers who post poorly researched, duplicitous commentaries accusing others of being sef-righteous? Is it ethical for citizen journalists to <span></span> demonize other private citizens by making unsubstantiated claims accusing them of being members of a dangerous lynch mob without any due process? Are those accused of being dangerous not entitled to the right of presumed innocence? Just curious.Norman Whitesidenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14632740.post-66038352554414330822011-06-28T23:32:38.000-07:002011-06-28T23:32:38.000-07:00<span><span>You honestly have no ide...<span><span>You honestly have no idea who Matthew Good is? Really? I assumed because you work at UBC and you write articles about the people of Vancouver, you actually lived here. Well, that's a little embarrassing.</span></span>George Bestnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14632740.post-38053500508310242292011-06-28T23:31:13.000-07:002011-06-28T23:31:13.000-07:00<span>You honestly have no idea who Matthew...<span>You honestly have no idea who Matthew Good is? Really? I assumed because you work at UBC and you write articles about the people of Vancouver, you actually lived here. Well, that's a little embarrasing.<br /></span>George Bestnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14632740.post-65986873887268589172011-06-28T23:29:01.000-07:002011-06-28T23:29:01.000-07:00You honestly have no idea who Matthew Good is? Re...You honestly have no idea who Matthew Good is? Really? I assumed because you work at UBC and you are write articles about the people of Vancouver, you actually lived here. Weird.George Bestnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14632740.post-49259707426657403462011-06-22T16:06:11.000-07:002011-06-22T16:06:11.000-07:00hmmm. And you all know that the people who showed ...hmmm. And you all know that the people who showed up to clean up downtown are not regular volunteers how exactly? "let's condemn everyone who is passing judgement on the 'would-be rioters' (author's words), and while we're at it, let's pass judgement on the ones that felt the need to do something positive in reaction to it!" Real classy. <br /> I was not downtown during the riots, I was not downtown the next day. I do find it appaling that some people such as the author take more exception to people's response to the crime, than to the crime itself. I've seen him write an article condemning the police, and one article condeming the general non-rioting population (and very broad strokes were used on both). Too bad there were no articles condeming the rioters... elbillugnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14632740.post-19030379004458309462011-06-22T02:38:48.000-07:002011-06-22T02:38:48.000-07:00Hi again. I saw this source, but as it didn't...Hi again. I saw this source, but as it didn't have relative numbers, it could go either way. The CBC was rather more definitive. Jonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14632740.post-14478246344995220292011-06-21T16:48:05.000-07:002011-06-21T16:48:05.000-07:00How about the actual source - you didn't come ...How about the actual source - you didn't come across that on your internet search - or it didn't match your story ? <br /> <a href="http://www.vch.ca/about_us/news/st_paul_s_and_vgh_emergency_departments_busy" rel="nofollow">http://www.vch.ca/about_us/news/st_paul_s_and_vgh_emergency_departments_busy</a><br /><br />"Common injuries were assault, exposure to tear gas or pepper spray, lacerations and substance misuse.<br />The majority of injuries treated at St. Paul’s were minor, related to contact with tear gas and pepper spray, lacerations, facial trauma, and substance misuse. "<br /><br />Will you still hold that the majority were caused by police ? elbillugnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14632740.post-8700369314449370272011-06-21T16:16:27.000-07:002011-06-21T16:16:27.000-07:00I agree with you that fleeting volunteer commitmen...I agree with you that fleeting volunteer commitments do more harm than good but as someone who trains and works with volunteers regularly and also works in and with co-workers who work in the DTES I do agree that managing and training volunteers is a lot of work. That said, I do not think my programs could operate without my volunteers and for that I think if more people made a long term commitment to whichever type of volunteer work they were most passionate about it (people, animals, environment, health etc) it would be a more meaningful and important contribution than cleaning up the streets as a photo op and that is how I understood that message. Volunteerism itself is really valuable but does not work as a one time feel-good act.Monicanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14632740.post-5690917934748278282011-06-21T13:27:48.001-07:002011-06-21T13:27:48.001-07:00True 'nuff.True 'nuff.Jonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14632740.post-50518267481578521262011-06-21T13:27:48.000-07:002011-06-21T13:27:48.000-07:00True 'nuff.True 'nuff.Jonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14632740.post-22506773306632562922011-06-21T13:27:20.000-07:002011-06-21T13:27:20.000-07:00Thanks for the link to what is indeed an interesti...Thanks for the link to what is indeed an interesting read. I have a couple of disagreements:<br /><br />* I don't think that the rioters were predominantly working-class youth. As I say, i really think it was a cross-section of the community.<br /><br />* I didn't see any overtly political elements; I didn't hear anyone chant "Fuck the Police." Actually, there wasn't much chanting at all (a major difference from most political demonstrations); the slogan I heard most was "Bruins Suck."<br /><br />* But this is not to say that the riot was not (as Gastón Gordillo and others indicate) indirectly political. Though what isn't, so long as you make the necessary connections?Jonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14632740.post-12391892237167140902011-06-21T12:29:51.000-07:002011-06-21T12:29:51.000-07:00" Let's just hope that these same people ...<i>" Let's just hope that these same people move on to volunteer in the Downtown Eastside, the neighbourhood that is Canada's poorest postcode, located just a few blocks from the site of this week's disturbances. Sadly, I doubt it." </i><br /><br />A friend who works in the DTES reports that on the night of the riot "<span>the DTES was the safest place to be."</span><br /><br />Another friend who has worked in the DTES for nearly twenty years is ambivalent to say the least about the many well-meaning people who want to volunteer down there (especially on holidays like Christmas). They represent a challenge to train and manage and often end up causing more trouble than good. She suggests that people volunteer in their own communities, or perhaps work with the latch-key kids in Kitsilano and Kerrisdale (neighborhoods which, as you suggest, were well-represented in the riot).Briannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14632740.post-30047872528552454652011-06-21T12:09:00.000-07:002011-06-21T12:09:00.000-07:00Here is another also interesting perspective:
htt...Here is another also interesting perspective: <br />http://vancouver.mediacoop.ca/story/aftermath-canucks-riot/7542Monicanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14632740.post-88145947670311742442011-06-20T23:23:57.000-07:002011-06-20T23:23:57.000-07:00In any case, I've now clarified the point and ...In any case, I've now clarified the point and added a link. Thanks for the feedback.Jonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14632740.post-9545346771567200602011-06-20T22:40:18.000-07:002011-06-20T22:40:18.000-07:00And a couple more references:
"St. Paul’s se...And a couple more references:<br /><br />"St. Paul’s set up a station to deal with more than 100 people suffering from injuries caused by pepper spray and tear gas." http://truthquake.com/2011/06/16/vancouver-riot-100000-people-rages-stanley-cup-loss-video/<br /><br />"A spokesperson for St. Paul's Hospital said the emergency room had seen at least 57 people with injuries related to the riot, most of whom were treated for tear gas exposure and released" http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/canada/ottawa/story/2011/06/15/bc-stanley-cup-fans-post-game-7.html<br /><br />(Actually this is the same story as above, thouh the link there doesn't seem to work.)<br /><br />And there are other such sources, I'm sure, as I know I saw this in various places. Not that it's a particularly major point.Jonnoreply@blogger.com